Re: [bolger] Re: Single source for Bolger boat design info?
> Do you have the Payson catalogue?No I'm afraid I don't.
Máximo.
So much for proof reading late at night. No meaning attached here just
over reliance on spell check, Bolger and Friends it is.
HJ
Harry James wrote:
over reliance on spell check, Bolger and Friends it is.
HJ
Harry James wrote:
>I have often thought that developing and changing concepts are why
>Bolger and Fiends haven't republished his old books. My opinion is that
>whether he disagrees with his previous thinking or not doesn't matter,
>the volumes stand by themselves as jewels of writing on boat design.
>
>HJ
>
>
>
>
> LuisHey, this Swaggie is a heck of a lot like
>http://www.swaggie-uruguay.com.uy
a Micro Navigator!
Hi Maximo,
(q quilombo armaste)
Nice to read you here.
Excelent your work with your "Diablo"; only need a daggerboard and a
sail to go ahead...
Rds
Luis
http://www.swaggie-uruguay.com.uy
(q quilombo armaste)
Nice to read you here.
Excelent your work with your "Diablo"; only need a daggerboard and a
sail to go ahead...
Rds
Luis
http://www.swaggie-uruguay.com.uy
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Grupos <grupos@p...> wrote:
> As I can see the catalogue of designs is a polemic subject. I don't
mean to
> ask Bolger for help, nor sell his study plans, nor replace his
> "perhaps-future-electronic-catalogue".
>
> Maybe "study plans" is the wrong word, I am sorry for my bad
english. I mean
> "very small graphic or sketch of the plan that gives you an idea of
the
> design". I mean something like this:
>http://www.promax.com.ar/bolger/imagen/designs/gypsy/gypsyprof.gif
>
> There are a lot of material around the web, I was only trying to
make an
> index of links for this material, and a brief description of the
most known
> designs.
>
> I love amateur boatbuilding and Bolger designs. I learn about
Bolger from
> the web, otherwise here in my country I would never heard from him.
The only
> ONE people in my city that ever heard about Bolger tells
me "Bolger's boats
> are boxy, very ugly and very bad". So I MUST thanks the internet
and the
> amateur builders community to let me know really Bolger and his
designs. So
> I would like that other people could learn from him on the web.
>
> I think that I would need a few years until people realized that
the website
> is still alive, and (slowly) getting a little better or more
complete.
>
> Regards, Máximo
>http://www.promax.com.ar/bolger
> This feature could be more or less added to our existing databaseBTW, search the database for "html" to find other hyperlinks for Bolger boats.
[In case people forget, our database is only as good as *we* make it,
and everybody is allowed/encouraged to make additions and corrections.]
Complaining that something doesn't exist, when we have the ability
to make it exist, is nothing more than whining.
> Maybe "study plans" is the wrong word, I am sorry for my bad english. I meanThis feature could be more or less added to our existing database see
> "very small graphic or sketch of the plan that gives you an idea of the
> design". I mean something like this:
>http://www.promax.com.ar/bolger/imagen/designs/gypsy/gypsyprof.gif
the Gypsy entry for an example: [the link is not clickable, but it can
be cut and pasted, etc..]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/database?method=reportRows&tbl=3&query=gypsy
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Grupos <grupos@p...> wrote:
Nels
> As I can see the catalogue of designs is a polemic subject. I don'tmean to
> ask Bolger for help, nor sell his study plans, nor replace hisDo you have the Payson catalogue?
> "perhaps-future-electronic-catalogue".
>
Nels
As I can see the catalogue of designs is a polemic subject. I don't mean to
ask Bolger for help, nor sell his study plans, nor replace his
"perhaps-future-electronic-catalogue".
Maybe "study plans" is the wrong word, I am sorry for my bad english. I mean
"very small graphic or sketch of the plan that gives you an idea of the
design". I mean something like this:
http://www.promax.com.ar/bolger/imagen/designs/gypsy/gypsyprof.gif
There are a lot of material around the web, I was only trying to make an
index of links for this material, and a brief description of the most known
designs.
I love amateur boatbuilding and Bolger designs. I learn about Bolger from
the web, otherwise here in my country I would never heard from him. The only
ONE people in my city that ever heard about Bolger tells me "Bolger's boats
are boxy, very ugly and very bad". So I MUST thanks the internet and the
amateur builders community to let me know really Bolger and his designs. So
I would like that other people could learn from him on the web.
I think that I would need a few years until people realized that the website
is still alive, and (slowly) getting a little better or more complete.
Regards, Máximo
http://www.promax.com.ar/bolger
ask Bolger for help, nor sell his study plans, nor replace his
"perhaps-future-electronic-catalogue".
Maybe "study plans" is the wrong word, I am sorry for my bad english. I mean
"very small graphic or sketch of the plan that gives you an idea of the
design". I mean something like this:
http://www.promax.com.ar/bolger/imagen/designs/gypsy/gypsyprof.gif
There are a lot of material around the web, I was only trying to make an
index of links for this material, and a brief description of the most known
designs.
I love amateur boatbuilding and Bolger designs. I learn about Bolger from
the web, otherwise here in my country I would never heard from him. The only
ONE people in my city that ever heard about Bolger tells me "Bolger's boats
are boxy, very ugly and very bad". So I MUST thanks the internet and the
amateur builders community to let me know really Bolger and his designs. So
I would like that other people could learn from him on the web.
I think that I would need a few years until people realized that the website
is still alive, and (slowly) getting a little better or more complete.
Regards, Máximo
http://www.promax.com.ar/bolger
> +++Having looked at the online material from MAIB, there is lots ofI usually skip that stuff. The Bolger article in every issue
> pithy material and quasi-'dear diary' puff pieces.
is more than worth the price. The classified advertisements
of the odd and classic boats is also a good read. Plus, there
is usually one or two other pretty interesting articles. Jim
Michalak submits articles every so often too.
Hi John, Thanks for a very thoughtful and insightful commentaty. And thanks
for the MAIB posts with the BW1 articles.
David L in Tennessee, where it's warm enough this weekend to work on my BW2.
for the MAIB posts with the BW1 articles.
David L in Tennessee, where it's warm enough this weekend to work on my BW2.
>Don't write off MAIB until you've given it a chance. $28 for 24 issues aI agree wholeheartedly with John -- even if I'm one of the guys who wishes
>year is the best magazine bargain there is, so try it for a year and then
>make up your mind. Sure they publish stuff by just about _anybody_ (even me!
><g>), but I think you'll find that there's plenty of useful information --
>and good entertainment -- in every issue. I subscribe to a bunch of
>magazines, but I get the most enjoyment from MAIB, and if I ever cut down on
>the magazines I subscribe to, MAIB will be the last one to go.
that Bob would limit the mag to 8 or 10 submissions by Robb White per
issue, instead of the usual 35. <chuckle>
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
never ask for the maestro to contribute to/spend time with the
database. It would be OUR effort to put something like that together.
Stefan
> Perhaps another reason they avoid the catalogue/The originator of this thread (the Wiki page), as well as Maximo did
> database is that designing boats is more fun than
> putting together a database.
never ask for the maestro to contribute to/spend time with the
database. It would be OUR effort to put something like that together.
Stefan
Bernie lives somewhere around Portland and I believe lurks here. List member
(and Coot) Bob Larkin in Corn Valley has started building a Birdwatcher II.
A small nit to pick: the Columbia doesn't have a delta, it debouches full
force right into the North Pacific, resulting in one of the worst bars (if
not the worst) in the world (even worse than the Bay Haven in Newport! <g>).
(and Coot) Bob Larkin in Corn Valley has started building a Birdwatcher II.
A small nit to pick: the Columbia doesn't have a delta, it debouches full
force right into the North Pacific, resulting in one of the worst bars (if
not the worst) in the world (even worse than the Bay Haven in Newport! <g>).
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:40:29 -0000, Nels wrote:
> ...
> Are you in the 503 area code? You might want to check to see if
> Bernie Wolfard is still around that area. He could lend you
> experiential guidance as he used to sell the plans and sail in that
> area. (Columbia River Delta and around Beaverton I believe.)
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
Missionaries, my Dear! Don't you realize that missionaries are the divinely
provided food for destitute cannibals? Whenever they are on the brink of
starvation, Heaven in its infinite mercy send them a nice plump missionary.
<Oscar Wilde>
Birdwatcher is Bolger's idea for a homebuilt Dovekie -- with some
"improvements" of course. The trouble with (or some would say the beauty of
<G>) both Dovekie and Birdwatcher is that they're not designed to
accommodate an auxiliary outboard, though the much more complicated
Birdwatcher II has a mount for one.
"improvements" of course. The trouble with (or some would say the beauty of
<G>) both Dovekie and Birdwatcher is that they're not designed to
accommodate an auxiliary outboard, though the much more complicated
Birdwatcher II has a mount for one.
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:11:42 -0000, David G wrote:
> ...
> The forum community may be the right place to go for advice. In
> private conversations three designs are most often mentioned for
> shallow waters:
>
> 1. Dovekie
> 2. the Pearl designs (single and tri)
> 3. Birdwatcher
>
> They all have swing leeboards and very shallow draft in common .
> All are said to perform well and be tame in the set-up department.
> If there is a Bolger version, hard chine draft plans of Dovekie or
> Sea Pearl 21 type vessels available for viewing, then I can start to
> figure out what makes sense for my budget, timetable and ability.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
What is more pleasant than a friendly little yacht, a long stretch of
smooth water, a gentle breeze, the stars? <Billy Atkin>
Don't write off MAIB until you've given it a chance. $28 for 24 issues a
year is the best magazine bargain there is, so try it for a year and then
make up your mind. Sure they publish stuff by just about _anybody_ (even me!
<g>), but I think you'll find that there's plenty of useful information --
and good entertainment -- in every issue. I subscribe to a bunch of
magazines, but I get the most enjoyment from MAIB, and if I ever cut down on
the magazines I subscribe to, MAIB will be the last one to go.
year is the best magazine bargain there is, so try it for a year and then
make up your mind. Sure they publish stuff by just about _anybody_ (even me!
<g>), but I think you'll find that there's plenty of useful information --
and good entertainment -- in every issue. I subscribe to a bunch of
magazines, but I get the most enjoyment from MAIB, and if I ever cut down on
the magazines I subscribe to, MAIB will be the last one to go.
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:52:37 -0000, David G wrote:
> ...
> +++Having looked at the online material from MAIB, there is lots of
> pithy material and quasi-'dear diary' puff pieces. Many of us
> working folk don't have time or money to mess with publications long
> on charm and short on useful information.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
"Necessity is the mother of invention" is a silly proverb.
"Necessity is the mother of futile dodges" is much nearer the truth.
<Alfred North Whitehead>
I have often thought that developing and changing concepts are why
Bolger and Fiends haven't republished his old books. My opinion is that
whether he disagrees with his previous thinking or not doesn't matter,
the volumes stand by themselves as jewels of writing on boat design.
HJ
Will Samson wrote:
Bolger and Fiends haven't republished his old books. My opinion is that
whether he disagrees with his previous thinking or not doesn't matter,
the volumes stand by themselves as jewels of writing on boat design.
HJ
Will Samson wrote:
>I believe the reason that PCB won't publish a full catalogue is that many of his designs have, he reckons, been superceded by later ones. For example, I know that he discouraged a customer from building an Otter (or was it Otter II?) and pointed him in the direction of Chebacco instead.
>
>I don't know if he point-blank refused to sell him the Otter plans, but . . .
>
>Anyway, Phil obviously likes to have some say over what people build and unquestioned catalogue sales wouldn't fit the bill.
>
>Bill
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
(I sent the message below earlier this morning, and it seems to have gotten
lost in the ether, this is the second try.)
What a lot of people seem to forget about Bolger is that he's 77 years old,
and he and Suzanne are a one man show. At one time he promised a catalog,
but over time it became apparent that the task was too much for him to
contemplate at this time. He's had the domain www.philipcbolger.com reserved
for years but nothing has ever been done with it. He's been approached at
different times by a number of people on this forum who've volunteered to
put as much of his entire canon into an online as he'd allow. The response
was that he didn't want just drawings of various boats posted without him
being able to give them each some of his own thoughtful commentary
explaining what he was trying to achieve with the design and it's various
pros and cons. He says he doesn't have time to go back and update these
commentaries, that he's got too many commissions for new designs to occupy
his time. What has been implied from Suzanne is that his catalog will be
eventually be availible, but only after he isn't able to work on any more
new designs (if you catch my meaning). I've got a letter somewhere where he
says there is no worries about being able to access his work after his
demise, there are plans to keep PCB&F going after that sad day.
The implication of this thread is that we somehow have a right to view his
catalog, when quite the opposite is true. If you look through the files in
this forum and it's associated spin offs Bolger2, 3, etc. you'll find a
number of drawings and commentaries by PCB cribbed from the pages of MAIB,
Small Boat Journal, or correspondence with the man himself.
The other thing you can do is post the question here about various designs.
Not always, but often you can have someone send you a scan of a drawing or
an article that describes what you are interested in. I've been the
recipient of this as well as been the benefactor for others in the past. For
example, with the recent flurry of interest in Birdwatcher, I posted PDFs of
the two recent MAIB Birdwatcher updates on one of the Bolger groups under
the assumption that it's fair use. And that's debatable. But wholesale
publishing of his work on electronically raises some copyright issues. For
instance, a few years ago WoodenBoat Magazine offered a CD with every
magazine in it's entiretly in PDF format. They wound up withdrawing it for
sale because of copyright issues. What if Bolger's (or Suzanne's) retirement
plan is going to funded by the sale of study plans for $5/each? If someone
on his own has already co-opted his work by giving it away without his
permission, what then? Is it right?
I'm a bit of a curmudgeon about this issue, but I respect the man's right to
do whatever he wants to do.
lost in the ether, this is the second try.)
What a lot of people seem to forget about Bolger is that he's 77 years old,
and he and Suzanne are a one man show. At one time he promised a catalog,
but over time it became apparent that the task was too much for him to
contemplate at this time. He's had the domain www.philipcbolger.com reserved
for years but nothing has ever been done with it. He's been approached at
different times by a number of people on this forum who've volunteered to
put as much of his entire canon into an online as he'd allow. The response
was that he didn't want just drawings of various boats posted without him
being able to give them each some of his own thoughtful commentary
explaining what he was trying to achieve with the design and it's various
pros and cons. He says he doesn't have time to go back and update these
commentaries, that he's got too many commissions for new designs to occupy
his time. What has been implied from Suzanne is that his catalog will be
eventually be availible, but only after he isn't able to work on any more
new designs (if you catch my meaning). I've got a letter somewhere where he
says there is no worries about being able to access his work after his
demise, there are plans to keep PCB&F going after that sad day.
The implication of this thread is that we somehow have a right to view his
catalog, when quite the opposite is true. If you look through the files in
this forum and it's associated spin offs Bolger2, 3, etc. you'll find a
number of drawings and commentaries by PCB cribbed from the pages of MAIB,
Small Boat Journal, or correspondence with the man himself.
The other thing you can do is post the question here about various designs.
Not always, but often you can have someone send you a scan of a drawing or
an article that describes what you are interested in. I've been the
recipient of this as well as been the benefactor for others in the past. For
example, with the recent flurry of interest in Birdwatcher, I posted PDFs of
the two recent MAIB Birdwatcher updates on one of the Bolger groups under
the assumption that it's fair use. And that's debatable. But wholesale
publishing of his work on electronically raises some copyright issues. For
instance, a few years ago WoodenBoat Magazine offered a CD with every
magazine in it's entiretly in PDF format. They wound up withdrawing it for
sale because of copyright issues. What if Bolger's (or Suzanne's) retirement
plan is going to funded by the sale of study plans for $5/each? If someone
on his own has already co-opted his work by giving it away without his
permission, what then? Is it right?
I'm a bit of a curmudgeon about this issue, but I respect the man's right to
do whatever he wants to do.
> Then why does he publish books?I actually in a large part I agree with you, mostly I was
> Why do other people than him sell plans?
> Stefan
describing what I come to believe PB&F position
is on the issue of a design database. I can also
see their side of the issue too.
Perhaps another reason they avoid the catalogue/
database is that designing boats is more fun than
putting together a database. Who can blame them
for wanting to have more fun? Life is short.
It is hard to justify that they 'owe it' to us fans to
spend the time to put together a catalogue, or
another book for that matter. [How long has it
been since BWAOM? more than a decade.]
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
Why do other people than him sell plans?
And, I think we don't talk about a ready-to-order catalog, but about a
database of information.
What about people who love to learn and look at his designs for their
beauty/simplicity/..., but don't actually intend to build the boats?
available. Nobody of course can complain to the drug
designer/manufacturere for poor results, if one buys the wrong
medication, without asking the physician.
Cheers,
Stefan
> I think that PB&F view it to be akin to a physicianThen why does he publish books?
> prescribing a cure to a unique set of symptoms.
> A catalogue of PB&F designs would be akin to
> a catalogue of physician prescriptions; premature.
>
> You shouldn't skip the diagnosis before choosing the cure.
Why do other people than him sell plans?
And, I think we don't talk about a ready-to-order catalog, but about a
database of information.
What about people who love to learn and look at his designs for their
beauty/simplicity/..., but don't actually intend to build the boats?
> A catalogue of PB&F designs would be akin toNo, it would be like descriptions of drugs. And they are publicly
> a catalogue of physician prescriptions; premature.
available. Nobody of course can complain to the drug
designer/manufacturere for poor results, if one buys the wrong
medication, without asking the physician.
Cheers,
Stefan
Nels:
Bounced the library again and they located a copy of "Building the
Tiny Cat" in Newport and is sending it up the coast. Keep the book
for your next build. Dave
Bounced the library again and they located a copy of "Building the
Tiny Cat" in Newport and is sending it up the coast. Keep the book
for your next build. Dave
> Taking a $100 dollar chance when it is so difficult to get a look-Put it in perspective. It is easy to drop $100 at a restaurant
> see, comprehensive list, etc is a sure way to get my wife to put my
> shoes out if (a) it doesn't get built or (b) doesn't work well here
> in mud hen land.
> Dave
taking your wife to a show and dinner, etc..
If you remain nervous, stick with a tried and true Bolger design,
that narrows the list down considerably.
Though I think you have a grasp on what it involves when you
imagine sailing in narrow sloughs and meandering channels (with
currents). To me at least, that is time for the gasoline powered motor.
A Birdwatcher 2 seems like a good choice for you. Get the recent
back issue of Woodenboat magazine, and the recent back issue of Messing
About In Boats magazine, there was a very big writeup [and photos] of
the boat between the two.
BW2 has an outboard motor, is a spirited sailer, has great shoal draft, can be
single handed, carrys three people; *and* has a very comfortable dry interior
space for your wife.
Eventually you just need to just take a leap, or you will look back and
realize you spent more time agonizing over the decision than you spent
actually building the boat.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dvd_godsey" <dvd_godsey@y...> wrote:
Stop the fussin, and build a Birdwatcher. I guarantee you will never
regret it. Bolger himself says it is his best design and why would he
lie about it?
If you are not compeletly satisfied and if you have not completely
screwed up the build, I will personally come down and take it off
your hands:-)
Are you in the 503 area code? You might want to check to see if
Bernie Wolfard is still around that area. He could lend you
experiential guidance as he used to sell the plans and sail in that
area. (Columbia River Delta and around Beaverton I believe.)
Sorry I still have not located the Tiny Cat book. Visitors are here:-(
Cheers, Nels
>don't
> Phil:
>
> Taking a $100 dollar chance when it is so difficult to get a look-
> see, comprehensive list, etc is a sure way to get my wife to put my
> shoes out if (a) it doesn't get built or (b) doesn't work well here
> in mud hen land.
>
> Perhaps taking the snail mail approach with carefully printed
> aerials and references to my attraction to the cat boats was in
> error. Advice was precisely what did not come back - just pricing
> for the two designs I said were particularly handsome. I also
> want to bother Mr. Bolger with minor questions, he has betterthings
> to do.to
>
> The forum community may be the right place to go for advice. In
> private conversations three designs are most often mentioned for
> shallow waters:
>
> 1. Dovekie
> 2. the Pearl designs (single and tri)
> 3. Birdwatcher
>
> They all have swing leeboards and very shallow draft in common .
> All are said to perform well and be tame in the set-up department.
> If there is a Bolger version, hard chine draft plans of Dovekie or
> Sea Pearl 21 type vessels available for viewing, then I can start
> figure out what makes sense for my budget, timetable and ability.Hi Dave,
>
> Dave
Stop the fussin, and build a Birdwatcher. I guarantee you will never
regret it. Bolger himself says it is his best design and why would he
lie about it?
If you are not compeletly satisfied and if you have not completely
screwed up the build, I will personally come down and take it off
your hands:-)
Are you in the 503 area code? You might want to check to see if
Bernie Wolfard is still around that area. He could lend you
experiential guidance as he used to sell the plans and sail in that
area. (Columbia River Delta and around Beaverton I believe.)
Sorry I still have not located the Tiny Cat book. Visitors are here:-(
Cheers, Nels
Phil:
Taking a $100 dollar chance when it is so difficult to get a look-
see, comprehensive list, etc is a sure way to get my wife to put my
shoes out if (a) it doesn't get built or (b) doesn't work well here
in mud hen land.
Perhaps taking the snail mail approach with carefully printed
aerials and references to my attraction to the cat boats was in
error. Advice was precisely what did not come back - just pricing
for the two designs I said were particularly handsome. I also don't
want to bother Mr. Bolger with minor questions, he has better things
to do.
The forum community may be the right place to go for advice. In
private conversations three designs are most often mentioned for
shallow waters:
1. Dovekie
2. the Pearl designs (single and tri)
3. Birdwatcher
They all have swing leeboards and very shallow draft in common .
All are said to perform well and be tame in the set-up department.
If there is a Bolger version, hard chine draft plans of Dovekie or
Sea Pearl 21 type vessels available for viewing, then I can start to
figure out what makes sense for my budget, timetable and ability.
Dave
Taking a $100 dollar chance when it is so difficult to get a look-
see, comprehensive list, etc is a sure way to get my wife to put my
shoes out if (a) it doesn't get built or (b) doesn't work well here
in mud hen land.
Perhaps taking the snail mail approach with carefully printed
aerials and references to my attraction to the cat boats was in
error. Advice was precisely what did not come back - just pricing
for the two designs I said were particularly handsome. I also don't
want to bother Mr. Bolger with minor questions, he has better things
to do.
The forum community may be the right place to go for advice. In
private conversations three designs are most often mentioned for
shallow waters:
1. Dovekie
2. the Pearl designs (single and tri)
3. Birdwatcher
They all have swing leeboards and very shallow draft in common .
All are said to perform well and be tame in the set-up department.
If there is a Bolger version, hard chine draft plans of Dovekie or
Sea Pearl 21 type vessels available for viewing, then I can start to
figure out what makes sense for my budget, timetable and ability.
Dave
> enough to make the designs accessible so people couldJust what is the role of the 'designer' in boat design?
> decide which plan they want to buy.
I think that PB&F view it to be akin to a physician
prescribing a cure to a unique set of symptoms.
IOW, they first must learn what you need/want
from a boat, so they may either:
1) direct you to an existing design
2) or modify an existing design
3) or create a new design
... to meet your *individual* needs.
A catalogue of PB&F designs would be akin to
a catalogue of physician prescriptions; premature.
You shouldn't skip the diagnosis before choosing the cure.
> It is just clear that no support can be expectedfrom the maestro.
I don't think that's true. If you are interested in
building a certain kind of boat, say a day sailer 16'
or less, send PB&F a fax. Tell them what kind of
sailing you want to do, what kind of boat building
experience you have, where you live and what kind of
boating waters you've got. Say something about your
aestetic sensibilities too. If you want something
elegant and swoopy tell them. If you want something
quick to build tell them. Don't tell them you want a
sailboat that rows well and works well with an
outboard because my understanding is that they don't
think that such a vessel exists. If and when it does,
PB&F will probably have figured it out.
Then sit back. You should get a fax back within a day
or two that has at least one suggested design and a
description of its salient capabilities. I'd bet
you'll get two or three designs to choose from.
What you won't get is an open ended invitation to
discuss the merits of the two or three designs. They
don't have the time and you have to make the descision
anyway.
I've discussed easier access to the designs with Phil
and Susanne. The big sticking points are 1) no time
and 2) they want to do it right. Doing it right for
PB&F is a whole lot more involved than doing it well
enough to make the designs accessible so people could
decide which plan they want to buy.
They've been badly burned by "helpful" people in the
past who wanted to help them get PB&F's plans out
there. They are understandably gunshy about losing
control of their designs.
Take a chance. Send a fax. Communicate with a real
genius. Buy a plan. Send them money.
Phil Smith
> His express permission may be in order.Just a hypothetical question:
Say a journalist/blogger/critic/researcher was interested in doing
reviews of an authors 'body of work'.
And, that if that journalist wanted to public express the
bad things about the 'body of work'. Asking the authors
'express permission' to publish literary criticism would be absurd.
In essence, what I imagine is a communal research project
collecting together, studying and critiquing the good (and
the bad) about Bolger's 'body of work'. Doing this in the
context of Wikipedia might make the most sense, because
it already has a well developed set of collaboration tools,
plus it is 'by definition' educational and not for profit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
That is a light year away from xeroxing his boat plans for the purpose
of reselling.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
Small C/B well forward of the midship area and a large rudder
supplying much of the lateral plane resistance.
Sven Yrvind adapted this design development to his tiny trans-
Atlantic Bris boats. He is a great admirer of PCB.
Cheers,
Nels
> > Bolger's Dart Dingy,Was Cartopper not the next step in the evolution?
>
> I am still sorely tempted to make one just to feel
> how it handles. Building the model gave me better
> understanding of the shape of the hull, but I think
> I need a 100% model to get a feel for the balance
> between the sail area and the lateral plane.
Small C/B well forward of the midship area and a large rudder
supplying much of the lateral plane resistance.
Sven Yrvind adapted this design development to his tiny trans-
Atlantic Bris boats. He is a great admirer of PCB.
Cheers,
Nels
> Bolger's Dart Dingy,I am still sorely tempted to make one just to feel
how it handles. Building the model gave me better
understanding of the shape of the hull, but I think
I need a 100% model to get a feel for the balance
between the sail area and the lateral plane.
> IS THERE A PLACE WHERE A COLLECTION BOLGER DESIGNS CAN BE VIEWED?Hello all! My name is Máximo, I am web developer. Last year I build the
> BOOK, BROCHURE, WEB SITE, CORNER BAR, OUTHOUSE......ANYWHERE? If
> there is an overlooked location, advice would be appreciated.
estructure for an "index" of Bolger designs website. But then I think it
would be of no interest at all, so I put away the idea.
But this past week, I saw the wiki site by Tom (very good idea and I hope it
grow up, but I think is difficult to use to people not as computer related
like me) so I want to show you what I have.
It is a simple website where you Bolgerist can send me trhoug a form
information about specific designs and scanned photos by email. So I collect
this information, and publish them online as soon as posible.
You can send me boats descriptions and information, photos, study plans,
links to existing websites, critics, reviews, experience, etc. Keep in mind
that I have no way to know if the information anonymous people send me is
accurate. But I think that lots of people would advice me for any errors.
Now, as an example, I only publish 3 designs that I like, so you can see how
the catalogue would work: Gypsy (we build her with a friend), Diablo (I am
building now) and Idaho (I wish to build it in the near future)
I am working in this site for free, and I will continue working on it that
way. But if you have the posibility and wish you to colaborate, I setup a
PayPal donation account to support hosting, time and others.
I wish to not have problems with copyright issues, I want to do a "fair use"
of the information I collect on the web. I am not a legal expert, so if you
think what I am doing is wrong, please let me know and I will delete the
archives inmediately.
I am linking clearly to Payson website and Bolger address in order to people
buy plans from them, so I think I will not harming them at all (I dont know
if there are others official vendor of plans)
I don t want to mean "replace" any of existing website an info already
exists. But to build a confiable and updated "index" of information about
Bolger.
Also I don t want to replace "Messing about in boats", but to international
bolgerist the cost of the magazine and the international shipping could be
very expensive.
Sorry for the long post, the "test" website address is:
http://www.promax.com.ar/bolger
Thanks, regards, Máximo.
I believe the reason that PCB won't publish a full catalogue is that many of his designs have, he reckons, been superceded by later ones. For example, I know that he discouraged a customer from building an Otter (or was it Otter II?) and pointed him in the direction of Chebacco instead.
I don't know if he point-blank refused to sell him the Otter plans, but . . .
Anyway, Phil obviously likes to have some say over what people build and unquestioned catalogue sales wouldn't fit the bill.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't know if he point-blank refused to sell him the Otter plans, but . . .
Anyway, Phil obviously likes to have some say over what people build and unquestioned catalogue sales wouldn't fit the bill.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
+++Sorry folks, didn't know this was an old debate - another newbie
steps in something smelly it seems.
pithy material and quasi-'dear diary' puff pieces. Many of us
working folk don't have time or money to mess with publications long
on charm and short on useful information.
what about the folks in Greece, Finland, England, etc?
some PROTRACTED DEBATE about what Mr. Bolger would or would not
like.
+++If there is heartburn about his supplecants post widely circulated
sketches in an effort to identify which boat designs to buy and
build, a 'cease and desist' posting on this site would quickly sink
the effort and we can all go our merry ways.
Dave
steps in something smelly it seems.
> My limited mind cannot understand why somebody else's work+++Bravo, Stefan!
> would lead to distractions - unless he considers possible increased
> sales of his plans as a "distraction from what he really wants to
>do, namely designing boats".
>are
> > The best resource for Bolger designs is Messing About in Boats,
>
> Well, first it is not possible to get all past issues. Second, there
> are people living in other parts of the world, where US magazines
> not that easily available. Let alone that an online database makes+++Having looked at the online material from MAIB, there is lots of
> searching much easier than to sift through hundreds of magazines in
> some library far away from home.
pithy material and quasi-'dear diary' puff pieces. Many of us
working folk don't have time or money to mess with publications long
on charm and short on useful information.
>If you are in rural US, with no+++That's me brother - a castaway on the windswept Oregon Coast...and
> reasonable access to a well stocked library, then you are probably
> already out of luck.
what about the folks in Greece, Finland, England, etc?
> It is just clear that no support can be expected from the maestro.+++Perhaps the best solution is to just do the best we can instead of
some PROTRACTED DEBATE about what Mr. Bolger would or would not
like.
+++If there is heartburn about his supplecants post widely circulated
sketches in an effort to identify which boat designs to buy and
build, a 'cease and desist' posting on this site would quickly sink
the effort and we can all go our merry ways.
Dave
--- "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...> wrote:
probably also doen't like that any real-world library has his books,
no? "Because it would lead to distractions from what he really wants
to do, namely designing boats."
My limited mind cannot understand the logic why somebody else's work
would lead to distractions - unless he considers possible increased
sales of his plans as a "distraction from what he really wants to do,
namely designing boats".
are people living in other parts of the world, where US magazines are
not that easily available. Let alone that an online database makes
searching much easier than to sift through hundreds of magazines in
some library far away from home.
Of course, the maestro has the right to decide in which part of the
world his works can be used. If you are in rural US, with no
reasonable access to a well stocked library, then you are probably
already out of luck.
Rights have clauses for "fair use", e.g. for "educational purposes".
So, while we have no right to USE his designs to build a boat (unless
allowed by him), we do have the right to "fair use".
Furthermore, as I understand, he considers the drawings in his books
and magazines as "public domain", i.e. somebody is free to build a
boat, if (s)he is able to do so by just buying a book or a magazine.
So, if somebody wants to compile an online database, including some
photos and drawings from books and magazines (but not full text copied
from there!), then I see no problem. It is just clear that no support
can be expected from the maestro.
Cheers,
Stefan
> He doesn't really want anyone else to do it eitherIf he doesn't like somebody else to compile a virtual library, then he
> because it would lead to distractions from what he really wants
> to do, namely designing boats.
probably also doen't like that any real-world library has his books,
no? "Because it would lead to distractions from what he really wants
to do, namely designing boats."
My limited mind cannot understand the logic why somebody else's work
would lead to distractions - unless he considers possible increased
sales of his plans as a "distraction from what he really wants to do,
namely designing boats".
> The best resource for Bolger designs is Messing About in Boats,Well, first it is not possible to get all past issues. Second, there
are people living in other parts of the world, where US magazines are
not that easily available. Let alone that an online database makes
searching much easier than to sift through hundreds of magazines in
some library far away from home.
Of course, the maestro has the right to decide in which part of the
world his works can be used. If you are in rural US, with no
reasonable access to a well stocked library, then you are probably
already out of luck.
> His work is his property and as such we have no absolute rightNot really true. He has published it. And usual Intellectual Property
> to it.
Rights have clauses for "fair use", e.g. for "educational purposes".
So, while we have no right to USE his designs to build a boat (unless
allowed by him), we do have the right to "fair use".
Furthermore, as I understand, he considers the drawings in his books
and magazines as "public domain", i.e. somebody is free to build a
boat, if (s)he is able to do so by just buying a book or a magazine.
So, if somebody wants to compile an online database, including some
photos and drawings from books and magazines (but not full text copied
from there!), then I see no problem. It is just clear that no support
can be expected from the maestro.
Cheers,
Stefan
He toned it down a bit and made the Cartopper, forward small center
board with larger than normal rudder.
Bruce Hallman wrote:
board with larger than normal rudder.
Bruce Hallman wrote:
>I have long been fascinated with Bolger's Dart Dingy,
>which breaks all the rules regarding lateral plane.
>
>Lacking a centerboard, the lateral plane is mostly
>located in the rudder ?!?!?
>
>http://community.webshots.com/album/275766007BzDenS
>
>
>
>
>The man has a right to promote (or not!) his work as he sees fit. His work
> I guess I can see this, but what good are all these great boat designs
> if nobody but Bolger can see/find them?
>
is his property and as such we have no absolute right to it. I don't like
this any more than anyone else, but I respect his right to do with his
intellectual property as he sees fit. Again, I say: Subscribe to MAIB and
you'll get 24 Bolger design commentaries a year, some new, some old, but
always interesting.
John Bell wrote:
if nobody but Bolger can see/find them?
Ah well...
Bruce
> Ah, the old why-doesn't-somebody-make-a-Bolger-web-catalog discussion!I guess I can see this, but what good are all these great boat designs
>
> I've been wondering when this one would come up again...
>
> It's been discussed before. In a nutshell: Bolger doesn't want to do it, it
> would distract him from what he wants to do, namely design boats. He doesn't
> really want anyone else to do it either becuase it would lead to
> distractions from what he really wants to do, namely designing boats.
>
if nobody but Bolger can see/find them?
Ah well...
Bruce
Ah, the old why-doesn't-somebody-make-a-Bolger-web-catalog discussion!
I've been wondering when this one would come up again...
It's been discussed before. In a nutshell: Bolger doesn't want to do it, it
would distract him from what he wants to do, namely design boats. He doesn't
really want anyone else to do it either becuase it would lead to
distractions from what he really wants to do, namely designing boats.
The best resource for Bolger designs is Messing About in Boats, where he
publishes an article every two weeks on his designs, both old and new. I
recently came ino about 10 years worth of back issues and there are a few
nuggets of gold in there. The discussion of Tahiti, and the introductions
and follow-ups on Champlain and Retriever are some of the best. But my
goodness, all the heavy breathing in this group about Col. H. G. Hasler and
what a dreadful looking boat that little (and I mean little) hunk of iron
oxide turned out to be!
He even admits to a few mistakes here and there. When you are on the
bleeding edge, one supposes a fes miscalculations are inevitable .
I'm a huge fan of the Champlain and Windermere concepts. I just need a boat
like this with four berths in two staterooms and a little more deckspace
that I could have built for $30,000. Too bad that's an impossible order to
fill. If only Han Van Pelt would put MUDLARK on the market and I could
conceal it from my wife. Or maybe Peter will tire of his yet unlaunched
Windermere (she needs a name!) in a few years at the same time I've got a
wad of cash hidden away and she'd be mine!
I've been wondering when this one would come up again...
It's been discussed before. In a nutshell: Bolger doesn't want to do it, it
would distract him from what he wants to do, namely design boats. He doesn't
really want anyone else to do it either becuase it would lead to
distractions from what he really wants to do, namely designing boats.
The best resource for Bolger designs is Messing About in Boats, where he
publishes an article every two weeks on his designs, both old and new. I
recently came ino about 10 years worth of back issues and there are a few
nuggets of gold in there. The discussion of Tahiti, and the introductions
and follow-ups on Champlain and Retriever are some of the best. But my
goodness, all the heavy breathing in this group about Col. H. G. Hasler and
what a dreadful looking boat that little (and I mean little) hunk of iron
oxide turned out to be!
He even admits to a few mistakes here and there. When you are on the
bleeding edge, one supposes a fes miscalculations are inevitable .
I'm a huge fan of the Champlain and Windermere concepts. I just need a boat
like this with four berths in two staterooms and a little more deckspace
that I could have built for $30,000. Too bad that's an impossible order to
fill. If only Han Van Pelt would put MUDLARK on the market and I could
conceal it from my wife. Or maybe Peter will tire of his yet unlaunched
Windermere (she needs a name!) in a few years at the same time I've got a
wad of cash hidden away and she'd be mine!
----- Original Message -----
From: "dvd_godsey" <dvd_godsey@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 8:04 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Single source for Bolger boat design info?
>
>
> I know copyright allows, for example, a library user to xerox
> material for their own use provided it is not for resale. Where the
> web falls in this regard is unknown so a read of the Google text is
> next.
>
> Putting drawings up (not full plans) so potential builders can grasp
> the concept and suitability would be completely
> appropriate. 'Dynamite' has email, puts his stuff up as web site
> jpegs for eyeballing so there is no need to duplicate them in
> another location except to have a complete, one-stop source that
> links to instantboats.com .
>
> Mr. Bolger does things the old fashioned way.His express permission
> may be in order. All that should be posted is what I recieved from
> him in the mail:
>
> - Front, rear & side elevations
> - Top view and that is all
>
> In the interests of all parties, copyright with Bolger or Payson is
> a must to give them legal recourse if they feel someone has done
> something inappropriate with their work. We must respect them and
> their contribution to the home-built community an protect the
> interests of all designers...it is how they heat the house and buy
> groceries.
>
> If Mr. Bolger agrees, doing a 'dump' to reduce the incessent
> requests from half-wits, such as myself, might be viewed as
> productive.
> Dave
>
>
>
> > The copyright issue, in my opinion, boils down to 'fair use'.
> >
> > It is worthwhile to Google 'Copyright Fair Use' to learn more,
> > but reproduction for profit is not allowed, but reproduction
> > for educational, research, and also for criticism is much
> > more liberally allowed.
> >
> > Probably the best index of Bolger designs in the Yahoo
> > Bolger Group database, poke around on this website to
> > find it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I know copyright allows, for example, a library user to xerox
material for their own use provided it is not for resale. Where the
web falls in this regard is unknown so a read of the Google text is
next.
Putting drawings up (not full plans) so potential builders can grasp
the concept and suitability would be completely
appropriate. 'Dynamite' has email, puts his stuff up as web site
jpegs for eyeballing so there is no need to duplicate them in
another location except to have a complete, one-stop source that
links to instantboats.com .
Mr. Bolger does things the old fashioned way.His express permission
may be in order. All that should be posted is what I recieved from
him in the mail:
- Front, rear & side elevations
- Top view and that is all
In the interests of all parties, copyright with Bolger or Payson is
a must to give them legal recourse if they feel someone has done
something inappropriate with their work. We must respect them and
their contribution to the home-built community an protect the
interests of all designers...it is how they heat the house and buy
groceries.
If Mr. Bolger agrees, doing a 'dump' to reduce the incessent
requests from half-wits, such as myself, might be viewed as
productive.
Dave
material for their own use provided it is not for resale. Where the
web falls in this regard is unknown so a read of the Google text is
next.
Putting drawings up (not full plans) so potential builders can grasp
the concept and suitability would be completely
appropriate. 'Dynamite' has email, puts his stuff up as web site
jpegs for eyeballing so there is no need to duplicate them in
another location except to have a complete, one-stop source that
links to instantboats.com .
Mr. Bolger does things the old fashioned way.His express permission
may be in order. All that should be posted is what I recieved from
him in the mail:
- Front, rear & side elevations
- Top view and that is all
In the interests of all parties, copyright with Bolger or Payson is
a must to give them legal recourse if they feel someone has done
something inappropriate with their work. We must respect them and
their contribution to the home-built community an protect the
interests of all designers...it is how they heat the house and buy
groceries.
If Mr. Bolger agrees, doing a 'dump' to reduce the incessent
requests from half-wits, such as myself, might be viewed as
productive.
Dave
> The copyright issue, in my opinion, boils down to 'fair use'.
>
> It is worthwhile to Google 'Copyright Fair Use' to learn more,
> but reproduction for profit is not allowed, but reproduction
> for educational, research, and also for criticism is much
> more liberally allowed.
>
> Probably the best index of Bolger designs in the Yahoo
> Bolger Group database, poke around on this website to
> find it.
I have long been fascinated with Bolger's Dart Dingy,
which breaks all the rules regarding lateral plane.
Lacking a centerboard, the lateral plane is mostly
located in the rudder ?!?!?
http://community.webshots.com/album/275766007BzDenS
which breaks all the rules regarding lateral plane.
Lacking a centerboard, the lateral plane is mostly
located in the rudder ?!?!?
http://community.webshots.com/album/275766007BzDenS
> this or the Bolger4 site. If launched, I would be willing toI, for one, have been waiting for a volunteer like you to show up!
> participate in an image bank project to collect material and post it
> provided we don't run afoul of 'Dynamite' or Mr. Bolger from a
> copyright perspective.
> Dave
The copyright issue, in my opinion, boils down to 'fair use'.
It is worthwhile to Google 'Copyright Fair Use' to learn more,
but reproduction for profit is not allowed, but reproduction
for educational, research, and also for criticism is much
more liberally allowed.
Probably the best index of Bolger designs in the Yahoo
Bolger Group database, poke around on this website to
find it.
Last week I sent Mr. Bolger an inquiry about shallow water designs
along with a series of aerial images from the terra server (a cool
place for high altitude photos and topo maps) with details about our
shallow, tidal flat sailing challenges and asking for guidance on
suitable designs. Included was a $5 check to cover postage and
materials on the assumption that some manner of catalog, brochure or
other useful propaganda would be forthcoming.
Aaaaanh! Wrong!
I was delighted and surprised, to get back a short
handwritten note noting the price for the new Beach Cat plans
and a diagram of his hard chine version of the Haven/Herreshoff 12-
1/2 with plan prices. The personal touch is nice and unexpected
since one would expect pests like me to be dispatched with 'the
standard package'.
While I don't begrudge his keeping the fiver to cover all the time
window shoppers like me require, the lack of a info, advice, or
guidance was a surprise.
From a shallow-water-advice-perspective, it didn't do much
good. A boat project is a big decision and being to make an
informed choice based on a selection seems logical, hence the
question........
IS THERE A PLACE WHERE A COLLECTION BOLGER DESIGNS CAN BE VIEWED?
BOOK, BROCHURE, WEB SITE, CORNER BAR, OUTHOUSE......ANYWHERE? If
there is an overlooked location, advice would be appreciated.
If no such thing exists, perhaps this would be a good feature on
this or the Bolger4 site. If launched, I would be willing to
participate in an image bank project to collect material and post it
provided we don't run afoul of 'Dynamite' or Mr. Bolger from a
copyright perspective. One would think they would be delighted
since it can only result in increased sales.
Dave
along with a series of aerial images from the terra server (a cool
place for high altitude photos and topo maps) with details about our
shallow, tidal flat sailing challenges and asking for guidance on
suitable designs. Included was a $5 check to cover postage and
materials on the assumption that some manner of catalog, brochure or
other useful propaganda would be forthcoming.
Aaaaanh! Wrong!
I was delighted and surprised, to get back a short
handwritten note noting the price for the new Beach Cat plans
and a diagram of his hard chine version of the Haven/Herreshoff 12-
1/2 with plan prices. The personal touch is nice and unexpected
since one would expect pests like me to be dispatched with 'the
standard package'.
While I don't begrudge his keeping the fiver to cover all the time
window shoppers like me require, the lack of a info, advice, or
guidance was a surprise.
From a shallow-water-advice-perspective, it didn't do much
good. A boat project is a big decision and being to make an
informed choice based on a selection seems logical, hence the
question........
IS THERE A PLACE WHERE A COLLECTION BOLGER DESIGNS CAN BE VIEWED?
BOOK, BROCHURE, WEB SITE, CORNER BAR, OUTHOUSE......ANYWHERE? If
there is an overlooked location, advice would be appreciated.
If no such thing exists, perhaps this would be a good feature on
this or the Bolger4 site. If launched, I would be willing to
participate in an image bank project to collect material and post it
provided we don't run afoul of 'Dynamite' or Mr. Bolger from a
copyright perspective. One would think they would be delighted
since it can only result in increased sales.
Dave